osCommerce Project

By | January 5, 2009

Meant to post this a while back, but forgot about it totally. What with “osCommerce” starting to lag behind in terms of development in the last few years, a bunch of people have taken the latest build of osCommerce, added a few bits and pieces and called it the osCommerce Project.

It’s basically a fork, though the people involved don’t like that word for some reason. The website is basically a rip off of osCommerce, and the name being used is a rip off of the osCommerce brand. All in all, not a great way to start life in my opinion.

However, let’s get past that – and talk about the actual people behind the project and the project itself…

Looks like Team Leader is vGer – well known in the osCommerce forum as a pain in the arse. Backed up by tomh, FWR Media, Chemo and Monika Mathe.

The project as it stands is a sham – it’s basically osCommerce, some stuff stripped out and some pointless contributions added. Seems as though NO thought went into what should have been served up first – GET IT RIGHT FIRST TIME!

What of the future?

Well, I have no idea whether this fork will take off. I suspect that it will, if only based on the brand name – codewise I am not expecting wonders as the main coder (Chemo) has fingers in many pies so won’t be placing his full attention on the project I expect. The rest of the people are amateur code “hackers” and people who can’t code…

My advice is to avoid it. Let’s see what their first real release is like – hopefully it’ll be something that should have been seen (in the osCommerce brand) 3 or 4 years ago.

However, if you fancy giving it a go, the link for the site is up there ^^^ – pretty pointless right now as it is just osCommerce with a few contributions.

102 thoughts on “osCommerce Project

  1. Liuk

    their catalog side is html 4.01 validated, so I think it is a good start point ๐Ÿ™‚

  2. jared call

    At the very least, it’s got actual code activity by people who have apparently learned some ideas on how NOT to run a project.

    It can’t hurt, and has the potential to be very helpful. I’m very interested to see what happens.

    Even if two of the team each spend one hour a week on forward progress, it’ll be a change from what we’ve seen from HPDL’s team. Unfortunate, but true.

  3. Liuk

    I agree jared, from a dead cart as it is today, to a slow growing cart ๐Ÿ™‚

  4. Gary Post author

    I’m undecided as yet.

    The way forward (in my opinion) is to produce a bare-bones cart that has nothing except a mechanism to show products and allow a checkout. Then have hooks to allow easy installation of “extras” (aka contributions) – much like wordpress does it in fact.

    What the project is right now is osCommerce with more bloat. I hope the next release goes some way towards changing that.

  5. Liuk

    Here I agree with you, but with a limit: from a coder point of view, produce a barebone cart is a good idea. From a user point of view, distributing a cart without the basic addons as it is oscommerce today, or more reduced, is a non sense. A user wants a cart to sell, not to learn installing the addons. ๐Ÿ™‚

    BUT: I think that a new oscommerce, in the way joomla works, with easy installation of new components, is a great improvement.
    This forces coders too, to code addons in a standard way.

  6. jared call

    Reading some of the team threads, it seems that some structural changes are in the works, but that they wanted to finish was was half-baked before starting a new cake.

  7. Shimi

    I don’t think Oscommerce Project will success, since Oscommerce v3 is due this February.

  8. Gary Post author

    Having read a few threads it now seems that they are abandoning the osc framework for their “v4” release, and instead are going to write new code from the ground up. Wonder if they will be also be abandoning the name “oscommerce”?

  9. Java Roasters

    Hi Gary, I am not happy with the progress of osC and also think that Harald has let a very good project fall apart over the last few years. All of osC’s problems lie at his feet. I also think that osC is a huge project that still has a very popular and widely used code base and over 5,000 contributions which makes it a very big player in the shopping cart field.

    Just because you are not happy with its progress does not give anyone the right to steal the name and code base. If they wanted to fork the project they should use their own name and see how hard it is to build a base of users from scratch instead of stealing the osC name and riding on the back of a lot of other peoples hard work.

    The whole oscommerce project is a sham and a disgrace to the people involved, the entire project does not have my support. I do not agree with the management of osC, I have even less respect for the projects management and I personally hope they do NOT succeed in their current form, they should FORK the project just like other reputable people have done.

  10. Gary Post author

    Hi JR – you don’t mince your words, eh ๐Ÿ˜‰

    I agree with every word you said.

    As a long term osc forumite and user, you know the problems that have arisen through HPDL’s actions (and in fact non-actions) – we’ve been there, done that and we’ve all got the t-shirts.

    I’m with you 110% about the other lot – they should have forked it and given it it’s own name. It is a fork, even though they will argue that it is not – they are looking very foolish to those of us who know just a little bit more than the average shop owner. It’s a shame that they felt the need to use the word oscommerce for their project – it shows a lack of respect not only to HPDL, but also to all the other oscommerce users and developers (present and past).

    Said that, if they do make a new version entirely and change the name, I have no doubt it could be a great success. As it is right now, I hope it goes down the pan quickly.

  11. Vger

    I just came across this post today and naturally felt the need to comment. Peters’ views are well known to me. He previously said that we should consult a lawyer about the use of the name osCommerce – well we did, just a few weeks ago. I met with their team and their view is that we are quite entitled to use it and that no legal case against us for use of the name would succeed. So let’s declare that point settled.

    I will argue that we are not creating another fork of osCommerce. Our aim all along was to save osCommerce, and we could only do that by setting up our own osCommerce Project. There are enough forks of osCommerce already. The problem was not with those forks, but with the actual project itself. Those problems are not going to go away. They will never go away because the problems are caused by the personality of the person who controls and owns all aspects of the old project. I have yet to hear anyone, for all their belly-aching, come up with a solution to the problem of HPDL.

    I did at least try. Before setting up the new project I wrot to HPDL and gave him two options:

    1. Hand over democratic control of the old project to his “Team”, so that he would not have 100% control of it.
    2. Sell his domains etc. to me at a price to be agreed.

    If he accepted either option I agreed not to set up the new project. I didn’t even get a response.

    Re., the comment about the old project making osC 3 available in February? You may have noticed we’re now into March, and it’s been delayed – yet again. 4 years ago it was posted that it would be available “within 2 to 3 weeks”. So what time frame does a few extra days equate to?

    Yes, we have dropped the idea of finishing MS3 Alpha 4. The more we looked at the coding of it the more we realised it was too out of date already and too bugged to make it worth finishing.

    Gary said that he didn’t know who ‘tomh’ was, well he’s Dr Thomas Hodges-Hoyland the guy who wrote the osCommerce Protx Direct module and the Pay Offline iPro payment module – both of them excellent modules.

    Just to set the record straight ๐Ÿ™‚

    Vger

  12. Gary Post author

    vger – interesting and thought provoking.

  13. Vger

    A few final thoughts:

    1. We’re not going away.
    2. We’re not going “down the pan”.

    Some of the people who have criticised me since leaving the old project are the same people who told me to leave when I criticised it on the old forums, and further told me to go and start my own project. I guess there’s no pleasing some people ๐Ÿ˜€

    Compare the team we have against HPDL working away all on his own (his choice).

    Who is going to come out with the better cart?
    Who is going to be best able to support the development of it with regular updates?

    Vger

  14. Paul

    That remains to be seen. Chemo started his fork and then abandoned it pretty quickly with no communications so he has “previous”…

    I think I prefer to stay with what I know for now.

  15. Liuk

    Chemo fork? I only saw it banned by HPDL… I never saw a form from Chemo.

  16. Gary Post author

    Yes, Chemo forked, then abandoned.

  17. Peter Bernard

    “no legal case against us for use of the name would succeed. So let’s declare that point settled.”
    What case law did they use to determine that point of view?

    “Our aim all along was to save osCommerce,”
    No one asked you too, I don’t recall the vote that elected you osC’s savior and god.

    “by setting up our own osCommerce Project. There are enough forks of osCommerce already.”
    The good thing about forks it that they stand on their own feet as their own project, some are good enough to do that, others fail. They don’t try and use the goodwill of the original “osCommerce Project” name and ride the coat tails of everyone else’s hard work and claim it as their own as they would loose the respect of the community if they did that.

    “I wrot to HPDL and gave him two options:”
    ROFLMAO @ Vger … and you are wondering why he didn’t respond????? I also don’t think you have the 7 figures it would probably cost you to purchase it…. but then why purchase it when you can ride on their name recognition for FREE.

    Vger … why don’t you just fork it and stand on your own feet and see if your project is good enough to fly on its own. There still might be time as I do not think the damage you have done to your projects reputation is permanent. People do forget. If they see a solid stand alone platform that is as good as you say it will be they will come over to your side again, but it must be able to stand on its own. It will never do that as long as you continue to want to ride in the shadows of osCommerce and on the backs of other peoples hard work. You don’t have to save osCommerce, I would just worry about saving yourself at this point.

  18. Vger

    Who asked me to save the osCommerce Project? No one, they didn’t have to. Each human being is born with free will and can make up their own minds about what to do in their life. Only robots or dummies stand around waiting to be told what to do by others.

    The one long-running strand from all of the friends of HPDL is “fork it, and then we will respect what you are doing”. We don’t need your respect and aren’t interested in getting it. But be honest to yourselves if to no one else. Forks of osCommerce don’t bother you – but what we are doing does because you know it has a very good chance of succeeding. And that’s why you keep on advocating forking it under another name.

    As for needing 7 figures to buy Harald out – ROTFLMAO @ Peter. If Harald could put 6 figures together he’d have come after us legally. The sad fact is that he’s mismanaged it so badly that it barely provides him with a living wage (if it does).

    As for management of our project – the UK Limited Company seal is on my desk as of 2 days ago, and the USA based not-for-profit company will be in the same situation within a few weeks.

    We shall soon open the Repository to outside scrutiny, and have just set up a “Commmunity Developers Group” in addition to our Dev Team – and they will have access to their own Branches of the Repo with commits to the trunk being signed off by the Dev Team.

    Vger

  19. Java Roasters

    Well Vger I guess things are fine in your dream world. You may not be interested in my respect (I have no respect for you anymore so I am sure it is returned).

    You must realize that even in Vger Land when you used the osCommerce name in vain for your project it was not only an attack on HPDL but also showed that you have not one ounce of respect for any individual that has ever posted on the osCommerce forum, and you have no feelings for the hard work of the newbie coder that felt so elated when they put up their first contribution on the osCommerce forum. By using the osCommerce name you are saying to them all that you think you are better than all of them put together and that you will crush their hard work to get to where you want to be. But you don’t want to do it with your own hard work, you want to do it on the back of their hard work. You will take ALL the credit for their work but you have shown by your actions that you do not care about their work and the project they put their hearts and businesses into. I feel really sorry for you Vger that you can not see that.

    They built the osCommece name, project and forum; not you. So therefore you should FORK the project under a new name such as Ready Cart for example. Then you would be able to stand on your own feet, not on the bodies of the people you walk over.

    I personally visit the Zen forum,osCSS forum, and obComerce forum and have no problem with either project because they have their own development path under their own unique name and give credit where credit is due. They do not try to ride the coat tails of osCommerce, they try to build a project based on osCommerce that will stand on its own. That is one thing you will never know Vger, ‘is your project good enough to stand on its own’, as it will always be in the shadow of its father until it you change the name and learn to walk.

    This point about the osCommerce Project name will never die Vger, it is going to haunt you forever. It it was a poor choice from the start and you got a lot of heat over it. If you read your own forum it is ‘STILL’ a bad choice that is only supported publicly by your Team Members.

    You also talked in your post about management and then started talking about seals and not for profit …. who cares if you have a seal. Who cares if you have a Developers Group … Your Management needs to start listening to their own forum and clean up the project name disaster and stop worrying about seals and new forum sections.

  20. Gary Post author

    I got banned from the project forum ๐Ÿ™

    Your tone is not only aggressive but offensive as well. I do not advocate banning anybody but hopefully the 48 hours of silence will put things in perspective for you.

    And yet, I just read a post from Bobby Easland (aka Chemo) in which he states that he will hunt down a user (namely ZacGrant) name and address and destroy them. Nice Guy!

    You people really want to work with Bobby? After he already let down a previous team with zero communication. My god.

  21. Vger

    The only people complaining on the new osCommerce Forums about the use by us of the name osCommerce are people who come there and register specifically for that purpose. Our regular forum users who post or answer questions about osCommerce have no problem with our use of that name.

    Really people – just because Harald finally released yet another Alpha version more than two years after the last one you suddenly think that everything is fine in Harald’s osCommerceLand.

    Have you actually looked yet at what he’s done to get the release out – such as stripping out the SQL compatibility coding so that it can only now be installed on MySQLi, pulling out features which were supposed to be part of Alpha 5 until the next release. It was so hurried that he didn’t even have version id data at the top of over 50% of his own files – no file name, no version, no time stamp, no name, nothing – and this is automatically inserted by Subversion if it’s set up correctly.

    You are quite welcome to use Harald’s Alpha 5 on production websites if you believe it is fit for use in that way. After all – Harald himself has said it is production-ready.

    Vger

  22. Gary Post author

    Hey – at least I am giving you the right to reply on my site. Which is more than you are giving me on yours.

    Banned for a month, even though I did not sign up to badmouth what you are doing, rather to repsond to the BS, threats and innuendo that spews forth from Bobby.

  23. Java Roasters

    I can not believe Vger banned you over one or two posts. Vger has not posted a positive remark about osC on the osC forum in years now but her account has not been banned. She did cause an entire section of the forum to be removed because of the sheer volume of her negative comments … but still no ban. I guess her and HPDL have different management styles.

    I can’t believe that Vger still does not get it. The negative comments on her site are not for HPDL, they always have been and still are about the theft of property that does not belong to her. The only way to stop people from posting what law abiding people would consider positive comments but you consider negative would be to dismantle the forums and domains. The forum activity alone shows the osCommerce Project is on life support and is on its last legs so why not stop the bleeding. Then when you finish your code from the ground up open up using your own unique name just as all the others before you have done. At least then it would give your new cart a fighting chance instead of tying it to fiasco that the osCommerce Project has been so far.

  24. Michael S.

    >> It was so hurried that he didn’t even have version id data
    >> at the top of over 50% of his own files – no file name, no
    >> version, no time stamp, no name, nothing – and this is
    >> automatically inserted by Subversion if it’s set up correctly.

    This is in the readme.txt file in the download:

    “With the migration to git, the $Id$ tags in each source code file have been
    rendered useless. An alternative solution will be put in place for the final
    v3.0 release.”

  25. Vger

    I did not ban Gary and neither did Bobby, but Bobby did suspend him from posting for a time. Bobby is much more sensitive than I am to the outright banning of people. My view is quite simple – if you only register for the sole purpose of slagging off what we are doing then I don’t see why we should allow that.

    As for forum activity, it’s fine thank you very much. It does at least report the real number of Guests and Registered members on the forum within the past 60 minutes, unlike a certain other forum which shows the Guests and Members for the past 24 hrs whilst saying they’re from the past 60 minutes (there’s been a little playing about with the coding according to an ex Team Member).

    As for my posts on the old forums – there’s been around 200 which have been deleted for one reason or another. If Harald wants to ban me he can. I haven’t logged in to the old forums since we forked the project.

    As for other comments – asked and answered a 100 times. You’re not going to convince me and I’m not going to convince you.

    Vger

  26. Gary Post author

    Rhea – banned, suspended, fork, project. You like to play with words ๐Ÿ™‚

    How about the banning of an account that has been a member of your forum for 9 months? That account being banned for this;

    “Your tone is not only aggressive but offensive as well. I do not advocate banning anybody but hopefully the 48 hours of silence will put things in perspective for you.”

    And then Bobby himself, actually harasses and threatens HARM to one of your own forum members – are you going to put up with actions like that? At least a few people saw Bobbys post (which was removed within a few minutes of it being posted).

    I’d say that calling someone a bullshitter is a LOT less “aggressive and offensive” than threatening to track someone down and destroy them. Wouldn’t you?

  27. Gary Post author

    JR – believe it. I was banned for this one post – which in no way “slags off” the project – http://www.clubosc.com/burt_banned_wtf.gif – that is an unaltered screenshot. If that deserves a ban, then so be it.

    Remember that this was only posted in response to Bobby bringing my name into that thread (which was subsequently locked, else I would have replied on the same thread).

  28. Matti

    Chemo’s original suspension (for 24 hours) from the osCommerce forums was due to aggressive behaviour toward another forum member, so there is nothing new in that respect. That this progressed to an outright ban was due solely to his subsequent behavior and choices. He has nobody to blame other than himself. That he should threaten to track down and destroy another user on Vger’s forums is nothing short of criminal. Most people are not aware that he is an ardent body builder. Feelings of grandeur, health problems, aggressive behavior, oversensitivity, complex fantasies, “chemo”…… go figure.

    That Harald has taken no action toward the misuse of the osCommerce name is not surprising. He is probably pissing himself with the miserable failure that it is and the absolute fools they are making of themselves. They have nothing to offer other than a slapped together “2.2 Final” and promises of a brand new cart. If Project-x is anything to go by, that will never happen. Only uninformed people would ever take them seriously.

    If you ever want to be taken seriously and EARN some respect, go and put your cart together and release it under another name.

  29. Matti

    Just posted on ecommerce-guide.com after deleting numerous posts on her own forums. I will paste it here just in case Vger gets her friend Kerry to remove it:

    By Vger March 23 2009 7:58 PMPDT

    *** you people, can’t you see that my way is better. I am better than HPDL, I have better coders, my cart will be the best …. If you will just stop trolling I can finish what I started and take over the project at all cost … and if you don’t like my way then F OFF.
    You just don’t get it … I am not going away, I will not stop banning people … I will never stop. You are all so insignificant in my life but mark my words I will show you that I was meant to be in charge of osCommerce, like it or not that is where I will be.
    I do not care what my forum users say, I do not care what the open source community says, I do not care what the law says, I do not care what the courts say …. osCommerce IS mine and I need no other reason than because I said so.

    http://www.ecommerce-guide.com/solutions/technology/article.php/11837_3787246_2

  30. Vger

    Yes, and no doubt all you good and principled people also find it funny that someone registered on our forums as Vjer and for their image used one of a woman dressed in Nazi uniform, giving a Nazi salute while standing in front of a large Nazi flag. The avatar used was my Black Cat avatar with the eyes doctored to a glowing (evil) red. May I just remind you that the Nazis killed or exterminated over 40 Million people, and the person who posted the parody you all think so funny is a prime candidate for being the person who registered as Vjer.

    You are really hitting the bottom of the barrel now.

    I suggest you grow up. None of you can excuse your behaviour, you’re not children any more.

    Vger

  31. Paul

    And of course vger, the actions of you and your cohorts can be excused. You are a piece of work.

  32. Java Roasters

    Vger I do not think you mean to say that comedy and the Nazi’s are similar. They are obviously very different and not the same person. So we now have it correct
    1) Comedy = bad
    2) Nazi = bad
    3) theft = good

    Okay, I understand now, thanks for the clarification. ๐Ÿ™‚

  33. Gary Post author

    Seriously, it’s beyond a joke now. Vger, take a step back and see the harm that you and your “team” are causing yourselves.

    Vger, you come onto this site and spout shite when you have called your forum members awful names? When another of your team members has threatened and harassed people for no good reason other than to make himself feel good?

    Let’s see – I know of at least 5 of your forum members banned by either yourself or Bobby. Two of those are long standing osCommerce supporters who want nothing more than for you to stop the shitty way that you are treating people and start respecting yourself and others.

    I won’t ban you from posting whatever you wish. Think about that with reference to your latest post, deeply, and you might just “get” a reason why a certain section of people see you as a thief, a weak individual and a charlatan. If you cannot take it on the chin, don’t give it out.

  34. Matti

    “glowing(evil) red” eyes? How does she know they are evil? Is that self recognition?

    Sounds to me like the Nazi thing is a parody also, after all, she is now publicly bragging about the extermination of any forum members whosoever dare to challenge their outright blatant trademark and copyright infringement: http://www.ecommerce-guide.com/solutions/technology/article.php/3787246

    A long hard think is definitely in order. I don’t believe this issue will ever go away. Not ever.

  35. osCommerce Community

    Quote Tomh
    “The issues raised have been read by all the team, and it is now a team matter alone.”

    No Tom, you are wrong again. Do not try and tell the osCommerce community that this issue is over. You still have not corrected the copyright and trademark violations. When they have been fixed to the satisfaction of the osCommerce community, team members and owners THEY will tell you that the issue is over. Until such time the issue is still very much open and still, as always, an osCommerce issue. Your team has been told repeatedly what needs to be done and all efforts to reason with your group by numerous community and team members have been ignored / deleted and members banned.
    When your violations are pointed out you disseminate false and misleading vague arguments such as osCommerce is public domain which it is not, has never been and will never be. You can not provide one shred of evidence or proof to back up your false claims but still, you insist in hold on the sinking ship.

  36. Chris

    This may sound hash, but I would just take matters to court and let them decide. If you not you will just alienate new people who were going to use OSC or variants, basically ‘because there currently seems to be issues going on in within that/those community(s)’.

  37. Concerned Citizen

    I was just looking at the other link http://www.ecommerce-guide.com/solutions/technology/article.php/3787246 and it seems they lost their dedicated server and are now on a shared hosting account. The server is owned by Terra Networks and is one of theirs that has been around for a couple of years.

    Vger quote
    “as we move this site and our main domain to a newer, and faster, server.”

    We can now add to the diction airy of Vger speak that faster and newer = downgrading to shared hosting. Lmao. Do they really think they are kidding anyone.

    I was under the impression that they had two dedicated servers so I am wondering why they didn’t move the forum to the other one? I am not sure if they lost both servers, but one of them is definitively gone.

    The end of this group is coming quickly. ๐Ÿ™‚

  38. Gary Post author

    I think that what more than a handful of “old timers” are saying is that we wish them every success with their project, but please rename it to something else. Woudl that be fair?

    As it is, they showe incredible disrespect to every user of osCommerce, every developer of osCommerce and themselves.

    I heard on the grapevine that United Hosting pulled out of sponsorship. Hence the real reason for the “server upgrade” – which is, in reality, a move from a dedicated box, to a shared server environment.

    I don’t know why vGer et al are digging their heels in – why not just dump the domains, start with a new name and get the support of everyone.

  39. Vger

    As can be seen from the posts here a certain Matti Ressler is very eager to pontificate upon copyright issues – but apparently only when it suits him to do so. When our forums were transferred from oscanswers.com he insisted that all his posts be removed, because under the terms and conditions of the forum we only had the right to use them on oscanswers.com. We agreed and removed all of his posts. So what does he do now? He rips off the images of some of our Team Members (which are their copyright) from one of the two forums on which they appear to put them on this new and purile website.

    He also describes the new osCommerce Project Team as the “Terra Network Team”, which is incorrect – but he knew that when he did it. Terra Network is a Sole Trader company solely owned by Edith Karnitsch which is entirely separate from eCommerce Ventures Ltd which is the Limited company which owns and operates the new osCommerce Project Forums and main site, of which Edith Karnitsch is not a Director. There is no legal connection between the two companies.

    I really don’t care a hoot what you put on that site but I do expect the images to be removed and to cease describing the new osCommerce Project Team as the Terra Network Team.

    Vger

  40. Gary Post author

    I would suggest that instead of using my blog to ask for matters to be changed, contact the site owner directly – always the best way.

    “Terra Network is a Sole Trader company solely owned by Edith Karnitsch which is entirely separate from eCommerce Ventures Ltd which is the Limited company which owns and operates the new osCommerce Project Forums and main site, of which Edith Karnitsch is not a Director. There is no legal connection between the two companies.”

    Has Edith Karnitsch resigned as a Director, as Companies House clearly shows her holding 10,000 ordinary shares…

  41. Matti

    Vger

    My sincerest apologies for any confusion regarding TerraNetwork. This came about due to your own posts and links regarding TerraNetwork which mislead people into making the connection. Our content has now been corrected.

    I don’t believe however that TerraNetwork is “entirely separate” from you and your team. Not only is Edith a member of your team, but TerraNetwork hosts your websites, distributes your software and uses the osCommerce logo when it shouldn’t. As such, it will continue to receive bad publicity.

    In regard to “ripping off” images, you should be careful with the accusations you make toward people. There is no copyright violation. The images are freely available all over the internet and their use can reasonably be classified as “fair use”. They certainly did not originate on your forums. Please consult with your counsel before making wild and libelous accusations. You are certainly in no position at all to accuse anybody of copyright violation.

    I am sure that you mean “puerile”, but I don’t believe that you know it’s meaning, let alone how to spell it. Far from being childish or trivial, the website addresses issues that are very serious indeed. I am sure that you wish them to go away and they most surely will when you and your team decide to do the right thing. My best advice is that you and your so called lawyers read what is there, since the arguments are quite clear and quite correct.

    Thank you for the permission to write whatever I want regarding you and your company on the site, however I will do my very best to only write what is factual (you could learn something there also).

    As Gary has noted, if you and your team would simply rename your project and give proper attribution to the true osCommerce, we will all wish you and your team the very best and all the bad publicity will go away.

  42. Vger

    The only places the image of myself have appeared appeared (apart from my photo album) is on the osCommerce Forums, both old and new. I don’t remember giving you or anyone else permission to use it.

    You’re obviously behind with things. Edith is no longer a member of the new osCommerce Project Team (one of us has to concentrate on running Terra Network), so there is no legal connection between the two companies or teams whatsoever.

    Robert Fisher is also no longer a Team Member and has been replaced by Will Langford, and we’ll announce another new Team Member today with more to follow in the near future.

    TerraNetwork hosts some sites belonging to the project but it is a web hosting company with its own servers and it supports the new project – that’s hardly shocking news.

    The old osCommerce logo will be replaced with the new osCommerce logo of the new project very soon.

    You just haven’t got it yet have you? We’re not renaming, rebranding, forking, or anything of that sort. You can keep on moaning, complaining, setting up grudge websites, until you are blue in the face – it makes no difference.

    We don’t want the respect or support of your little group. If we ever started to get either then I personally would think we’d done something very wrong somewhere.

    Vger

  43. Vger

    Re., the points that Gary made:

    1. The link to the new site was posted here, so that’s why I commented here.

    2. Under UK company law someone has to actually pay for their share allocation before they are legally theirs. Edith and Rob stood down before actually taking up their share allocations.

    Vger

  44. Matti

    So, the team member attrition has begun ๐Ÿ˜€

    We will do our best to keep our pages up to date (you don’t). Former members will remain on our profiles page (they may contact me if they wish removal).

    I don’t need your permission to use your picture, it’s fair use.

  45. Java Roasters

    I already sent off an email to http://www.ipo.gov.uk asking them to take a close look at the trademark application and outlined a few resources for them to do a closer investigation.

  46. Vger

    From an official UK Govt source: “Under the Trade Marks (Relative Grounds) Order 2007 it is now possible to register a trade mark that is the same as, or similar to, an existing trade mark unless the owner of the earlier trade mark successfully opposes the new application. However, it is still worth checking that no one has registered the same or a similar trade mark before you make your application.”

    The important words being “successfully opposes” and “has registered the same or a similar trade mark”.

    Peter and Matti should be happy and not angry, because if it hadn’t been for the fuss kicked up by you and your small group of people in opposition to us we would never have thought of doing this. So it’s all down to your efforts really.

    Harald will now, presumably, oppose the registration and it will go to legal arbitration, which does have major cost implications. This will take some further months until there is a final decision. And then ….there’s always the USA, which takes 10 months for an unopposed application, and a lot longer if opposed. And then there’s the EU (Madrid Protocol) and goodness only knows how long it takes the EU to get themselves into gear.

    In short the status of ownership of the trademark will be in legal dispute for years, which is more than enough time for us to do what we intend. And whilst it is in dispute and unregistered to anyone no one can stop us using the name ‘osCommerce’.

    But Matti Ressler is the self-proclaimed expert on trademark law – so what do I know? ๐Ÿ™‚

    Vger

  47. Laura Sheldon

    Just out of curiosity Vger. What do you intend to do?

  48. Matti

    @Vger

    That very same web page you are quoting also advises:

    “You may also want to take professional advice from a trade mark attorney or a patent attorney.” http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1073791336

    Something that clearly you have not done, since you would quickly find you are wasting your time. You would also find that your misrepresentations are criminal.

    Again, you achieve only one thing with your rants and that is to show the World the despicable nature of your endeavours.

    I am not angry in the slightest.

    For the record, my wife is the attorney, not myself ๐Ÿ™‚

  49. bkellum

    Why push the name issue?? Why go through all of the legal hassles?? Wouldn’t it be better and more suitable to simply come up with a unique name that separates the project from the original osCommerce? Having a name that so closely resembles the original trademark of osCommerce only causes confusion and blurs the line between the two distinct projects.

  50. Vger

    Well, isn’t life interesting at times (no, not referring to your comments Matti). It seems, from the wad of papers I have here and from the phone call I had today with the Intellectual Property Office, that neither the old or the new osCommerce project is likely to be able to register the name osCommerce. The reason being that two companies, one in the UK and one in Germany have already registered the word (or letters if you prefer) “os” as a trademark. And the trademark covers the exact category that osCommerce would have to be registered under and covers derivitives of that word — such as osCommerce.

    As for Peter “having sent an email off”, this isn’t childrens’ play time. It doesn’t work like that. Only formal objections can be made, and for that you have to pay a nice big fat fee. You then have to agree to legal costs if awarded against you, plus your legal costs in pursuing the challenge in the UK Courts. They say that usually only partial costs are awarded against the loser, but these partial costs are usually thousands of pounds. You’re unlikely to get your own legal costs back even if you win. So Peter, this is adult stuff and bunging off an email or two or making a post somewhere just won’t cut it.

    Vger

  51. Matti

    @Vger

    The Trade Marks (Relative Grounds) Order 2007 only applies to Section 5 of the Trade Marks Act 1994. There are far more serious grounds within the Trademarks Act for opposition than what is covered by section 5.

    Any other objections may be raised by anybody, which any good lawyer could tell you.

    Those who wish to lodge formal opposition may find the relevant form here: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tm/forms/tm7.pdf

  52. Matti

    I particularly like this part of the above form:

    “3 (6) It is a trade mark which should not be registered for some or all of the goods
    and services in the application as the application was made in bad faith because:”

    Particularly since Miss Anthony has so widely published her bad faith ๐Ÿ˜‰

  53. Vger

    1. Objections can be raised by anybody, provided they fill out the form, pay the fee, and are then prepared to back it up in the legal action that follows. If you fill out the form, pay the fee, but are not then prepared to face the legal action and its costs then the objection won’t go anywhere.

    2. I assume that would be Harald, because he is the one who claims ownership of the mark and unless he objects no one else is likely to succeed.

    3. Read my last post. I have a thick wad of papers here from the Intellectual Property Office which, amongst other things, gives the full printouts of the “os” marks already owned. In the long phone call that followed it was made clear that:

    (a). The two companies with the “os” mark will be automatically informed of our application.

    (b). Both companies may well want to preserver their rights. This was explained in the following manner – “os” (Ordnance Survey) may at some point in time want to set up a side-shoot commercial business and call it osCommerce, which they would have a right to do as they already own “os”. The same goes for “os” owned by Osram.

    (c). Both are major companies with major legal departments and are almost certain to want to protect rights deriving from their original trademarks, even if they never use them.

    This maker it highly unlikely that EITHER the old or new osCommerce projects will be able to register/legally claim ‘osCommerce’ as an enforceable trademark.

    There is one difference – if either of the two companies with the “os” trademarks decide to expand their trademark to osCommerce then they can force the handing over of all top level oscommerce TLDs. I have seen this happen to someone who owned a top level TLD which was a trademarked name.

    This would not affect us, as ours are ‘oscommerceproject’, but it would affect alll ‘oscommerce’ domains.

    For our purposes it is perfectly fine if neither the old or now projects can register osCommerce as a trademark.

    A stand-off which leaves both parties unable to register osCommerce as a trademark leaves both parties able to continue using the name unless either of the two companies with the “os” trademark preserves their derivative rights by registering osCommerce – in which case both projects would have to cease using the name but only one would lose their domains as well.

    I’m sure Matti that Harald and the old project team members and supporters will be very pleased that your actions and activities may well lead to the situation where both projects may be forced to rebrand and where one can also lose all of their domains ๐Ÿ˜€

    Vger

  54. Matti

    @Vger

    FUD, pure and simple.

    Thanks for reinforcing how malicious your intentions are.

  55. Vger

    Well, for Matti that was almost “speechless”. But perhaps it’s not my intentions which are at issue here. I resigned as a Team Member of the old osCommerce Project. I didn’t get booted off it by Harald as Matti was.

    I’m sure that Matti won’t mind explaining to people here how he reckons (in his mind) that he owns part of osCommerce and how he came to be booted off the team, off the forums and how he continued to describe himself as a Senior Team Member of osCommerce on his own website until very recently.

    Vger

  56. Matti

    @ Vger

    FUD – look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

    What more is there to say?

    That you find it necessary to deflect from the issues only further undermines your own credibility. That you find it necessary to engage in libel only further weakens your own position.

    You are still wrong on all counts. You explain to the World what gives you any right to anything named “osCommerce”.

  57. Bobby Easland

    ==== Quote from Matti ====
    Chemo’s original suspension (for 24 hours) from the osCommerce forums was due to aggressive behaviour toward another forum member, so there is nothing new in that respect. That this progressed to an outright ban was due solely to his subsequent behavior and choices. He has nobody to blame other than himself. That he should threaten to track down and destroy another user on Vger’s forums is nothing short of criminal. Most people are not aware that he is an ardent body builder. Feelings of grandeur, health problems, aggressive behavior, oversensitivity, complex fantasies, “chemo”รขโ‚ฌยฆรขโ‚ฌยฆ go figure.
    ==== SNIP ====

    @Matti,

    I still have the Skype exchange with Harald over the suspension. It was not a 24 hour suspension and was permanent from the start. Further, the Skype exchange was not geared for issue resolution but rather the opposite. The decision was already made to make it a permanent ban and the flow of discussion clearly shows it.

    With respect to being an ardent body builder your terminology and understanding is incorrect and borderline slanderous. I started that forum…which now has nearly 100K members…to show and teach body builders that chemical enhancement was not necessary as is practically a tenent. However, if they were to choose that path I wanted the site to be an informational portal with straight forward and factual information. A body builder I am not but staying healthy with basic compound movement, heavy weight excercises is my life style choice.

    With respect to being sensitive to attacks on my military career or the sacrifices I have made since 1992 it is no secret that I will defend those that have died for me and beside me. I understand Matti that the current war that the US is engaged in is not your concern but it is the backdrop story to my life. It has taken all of my life long friends and even family. It has left me with a thousand memories I don’t want yet still must carry the burden. My brother died on 10 January 2008. If you lost family how sensitive do you think you would be?

    With respect to Project-X it was not a fork. It was a complete recode hence a completely separate project. I was called away for military duty…which I explained to Matti in a PM…but obviously could not remain engaged in the project. However, the intent is still the same today as it was then. Build it from the ground up and do it better. The name fiasco…that’s just entertainment.

    The overall satisfaction will be when our platform becomes the standard and each of you performs your first install for yourself or a client.

    Cordially,

    Bobby Easland

  58. Gary Post author

    @Bobby – with respect to being banned from Forums – how do you explain the fact that I got banned for “abusive behaviour” and yet, you yourself threatened to track and harm one of your own forum members?

    When a member gets banned, it only serves to make yourselves look little – you are simply stopping people from having a say in things that are considered important. Perhaps not important to all, but even so…

    I have no interest in what the US gets up to illegally – that’s not what this is about, so let’s get off that right now.

    This is all about a bunch of people who have zero respect for themselves, for anyone who has ever contributed, for anyone who has ever run an osCommerce shop. Led by someone who appears to be a liar and a thief, and backed up by someone who has threatened harm to others. Doesn’t look great…

  59. Vger

    I think it’s a bit rich that Matti who is himself banned from the old forums should make reference to Bobby being banned, as though that of itself was a bad thing.

    I’m also not sure what “libel” I am supposed to have committed. About Matti being booted off the old team by Harald? Fact. About Matti being banned from their forums? Fact. About Matti believing, as the result of promises which he says were made to him, that he has partial ownership and financial rights in the old project? Fact. That he refused to acknowledge that he was no longer a Team Member of the old project and continued to describe himself as such for a long time afterwards? Fact.

    Vger

  60. Matti

    @Vger & Bobby

    You both continue to deflect from the main issue, so please answer: What gives you the right to anything named “osCommerce”?

    The consensus thus far is: nothing

    Bobby describes the use of the name as an entertaining fiasco, again showing that it’s use is motivated by bad faith.

  61. Vger

    Gary – there was one instance of one person who got suspended for 48 hours on our forums for becoming abusive when discussing coding issues. The others who were banned were banned because all they wanted to discuss was the forking of the project, and nothing else. Some of those people only registered to berate us for what we were doing, and never had any intention of ever contributing anything constructive.

    If you wish to return to our forums for the purpose of discussing coding issues, what features should be in the new cart, to assist newcomers who have problems and so forth then I would be happy to remove the ban.

    I believe that is a fair offer, especially from someone you have just slandered as a “liar and a thief”.

    When you refer to those who have contributed to the old osCommerce project I would draw your attention to the fact that there are current and serving Team Members of that project who have been there since the early days but who haven’t contributed 1% of the time and effort I have expended in assisting people on those forums. Also, when I joined that Team, the Live Shops section had untended applications going back 2 years. 000’s of applications, all of which had to be checked and categorised. Before I resigned from the Team the Live Shops applications were all up to date. It was a massive (and thankless) piece of work. I had a small amount of help in the latter stages from one Team Member, other than that I did it all on my own.

    I don’t think there is any one person, in the whole history of the old project, who has spent more time helping newbies on the old forums than myself.

    There are no existing Team Members of the old project, other than Harald and possibly Melinda, who has spent more time on team tasks than myself. I say that even though I was a Team Member for only a fraction of the time that some of the deadwood have been team members.

    Vger

  62. Vger

    @ Matti

    “The consensus thus far is: nothing”

    According to who? You and a few other disgruntled people does not constitute a concensus.

    I cannot help but notice that whilst you accuse me of trying to deflect people away from the issues at hand that you steadfastly refuse to answer any comment made about your own history in the old project and your own interests in not seeing a new osCommerce project succeed.

    Vger

  63. Matti

    @Vger

    I am not here to answer comments that are designed only to deflect from the issue at hand. There is no issue for anybody as to what my legal status with osCommerce is. Your reference to it is just an attempt to shift focus from the true issues.

    I have publicly stated more than once that I have no problem with your project succeeding, so long as you change the name and give attribution to osCommerce. So long as you do things in a lawful manner, which currently you do not. I have no hidden agenda as you imply.

    Again, please answer to the World: What gives you the right to anything named “osCommerce”?

  64. Gary Post author

    @vger;

    “there was one instance of one person who got suspended for 48 hours on our forums for becoming abusive when discussing coding issues”

    that person called you a bigger bullshitter than HPDL. Abusive? Perhaps. Now explain how Bobby remains a member of the forum, and a member of the team, as well as a director of eCommerce Ventures Ltd when he has threatened -harm- to others.

    Also, remember that slander is only slander when what is said is incorrect. I can play word games just as well as you.

  65. Vger

    @ Gary “I can play word games just as well as you.”

    So I think I can take it that my offer is of no interest to you. That’s a pity because the offer was genuine and well meant.

    @Matti “give attribution to osCommerce”

    The version id info in the files has not been changed at all, except where there are new files or where files have been updated. Inside and out it still says “copyright osCommerce” – what’s changed is the address at which people can seek help for it. If we didn’t change that then you’d be complaining that we were directing people to the old projects’ website for something they didn’t release.

    Your other question about what right we have to use the name has been asked and answered so many times. It makes no difference what we say, you simply don’t accept our view and we don’t accept yours.

    For others who may be interested – when we forked the project the old project was either dead or having a near-death experience (a prolongued one). It was impossible to tell which.

    I’d like to see any reasonable person deny that if it wasn’t for what we did in starting the new project there would be no MS3 Alpha 5 release. Harald would still be sitting on his butt doing nothing, just as he had been doing for the two years previously when he released MS3 Alpha 4.

    There were other people who were angry at what we did – but for the reason that they thought that osCommerce was dead and would have been happier to see it stay that way.

    Vger

  66. Gary Post author

    @vger;

    your offer is fine and TYVM. When the time is right, and other things are right I may well look at your project – I’ve never denied that your project has “legs”…

    However, I would still like to know, from you the organ grinder;

    “explain how Bobby remains a member of the forum, and a member of the team, as well as a director of eCommerce Ventures Ltd when he has threatened -harm- to others”

    when another forumite got banned for simply calling you a Bullshitter – which is surely nothing compared to what Bobby threatened a certain forum user.

    This keeps being ignored time and time again. Why?

    BTW, I have no problem in saying that 3a5 would not have been released at the time it was had it not been for actions on your part.

    Would you answer my point about Bobby now? Perhaps he himself would like to explain it away, truthfully and transparently…

    Also, this sentence by you is interesting on a number of levels;

    “when we forked the project the old project was either dead or having a near-death experience (a prolongued one)”

    Now, you may have noticed that I do not have the same issues as others on this matter. Please don’t get my POV mixed up with others.

    Answer my questions truthfully and I’ll go away happy, even though I don’t like certain aspects of your business.

    So, questions, if you able to be transparent;

    1. Why use the name osCommerce Project?
    2. Why wasn’t osC Answers good enough?
    3. Why is Bobby still involved (considering his threats to forum members)?
    4. Why did you appear to lie in your previous comment about Edith being (or not being) a director of eCommerce Ventures Ltd). Companies House still shows her as a -FULLY PAID- Director holding a number of shares.

    Please feel free to link to this blog post from your forum – I’m pretty sure that your users would like to make their views known! This blog is absolutely open to all points of view – unliek your own forum ๐Ÿ˜‰

  67. Matti

    @Vger

    Version id info has nothing to do with attribution. That is just there so other developers know who last worked on the file. Didn’t you know that?

    So, your project -IS- a fork now? Yes, we could have told you that. You have said it so many times now, then turned around and denied it. Do as any other fork of substance has done and ::: GET A NAME FOR IT :::

    I have no problem whatsoever with the display of links to the true osCommerce website.
    Here lies the biggest problem in fact: You have changed the copyright holder identification (attribution) to yourself, since you are posing as “osCommerce”. Of particular significance are your changes to the displayed admin copyright notice, where again you identify “osCommerce” as you, even linking “Copyright (c) osCommerce” to your web site, with the code notes changed to point to a non-existent copyright page on your website. This is also a clear breach of the GPL, thus making the software you distribute pirated software. The true osCommerce admin notice complies with section 2(c) of the GPL. You may add further copyright notices, however you cannot lawfully remove or alter it in the way you have. The attribution to osCommerce must remain.

    There is no way in the world that you can argue that you have maintained the osCommerce copyright notices, when any reasonable person seeing them (who didn’t know) would think that you ARE osCommerce. Its a clear case of passing off. You want people to think you are osCommerce. You wish to steal not only the trademark, but also the copyright. You want people to think that somebody else’s work is yours. You wish that people like me would just shut up and go away, so you can continue with the evil plan you have alluded to above.

    I am not the only person asking the questions. What gives you the right to use anything named “osCommerce”? What gives you the right to pretend to be “osCommerce”?

    You have never answered these questions. Yes, you have made many ridiculous statements as to how you think you can GET AWAY WITH doing it, however absolutely nothing as to what moral or ethical right you think you have to do it. Please don’t give us your guff regarding “saving osCommerce”. I am sure that many have wanted to save osCommerce, however wanting to is no excuse for what you have done. Nor do we wish to hear how you made the most posts to the osCommerce forums and so that gives you the right. It doesn’t.

    I do not believe that Harald has done anything because of what you have done. But then, there are lots of things that you do not know, so I am not surprised you think that way.

    So, answer the questions, Gary summed them up nicely ๐Ÿ™‚

  68. Bobby Easland

    I declare publicly that the statements made on the newoscommerceproject.org website are defamatory to my professional career, libelous, and also objectionable. Further, because of the above mentioned reasons it gives reason for rise of civil litigation which is in direct conflict with Section 1. – User Conduct of the Arius Web Hosting TOS agreement which was executed by the following registrant. The information was harvested by using publicly accessible records and a simple whois command query from a Linux terminal command line:

    Domain ID:D155684198-LROR
    Domain Name:NEWOSCOMMERCEPROJECT.ORG
    Created On:23-Mar-2009 04:35:57 UTC
    Last Updated On:23-Mar-2009 04:35:59 UTC
    Expiration Date:23-Mar-2010 04:35:57 UTC
    Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
    Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
    Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED
    Registrant ID:05AC4B6987CFCE0F
    Registrant Name:Matti Ressler
    Registrant Organization:Suomedia
    Registrant Street1:2/1a Mossgiel Street Fairlight
    Registrant Street2:
    Registrant Street3:
    Registrant City:Sydney
    Registrant State/Province:NSW
    Registrant Postal Code:2094
    Registrant Country:AU
    Registrant Phone:+61.418608883
    Registrant Phone Ext.:
    Registrant FAX:
    Registrant FAX Ext.:
    Registrant Email:matti@suomedia.com

    In addition, other parties to be named in the civil litigation proceedings are the following:

    Admin ID:c0f7abae51a072e3
    Admin Name:Admin Contact
    Admin Organization:Kwik Hosting
    Admin Street1:7672 Montgomery Rd
    Admin Street2:
    Admin Street3:
    Admin City:Cincinnati
    Admin State/Province:OH
    Admin Postal Code:45236
    Admin Country:US
    Admin Phone:+1.5132218363
    Admin Phone Ext.:
    Admin FAX:
    Admin FAX Ext.:
    Admin Email:info@kwikhosting.com

    The above named hosting provider lists the following Administrative contact information:

    Administrative Contact:

    Scott Campbell (scott@ariaswebhosting.com)
    +1.5135551212
    Fax:
    NA
    NA, OH 45201
    US

    My retained counsel contact information for this litigation is the following if a reasonable settlement is desired:

    Beth Albright-Louis PLLC
    6616 Dixie Hwy Ste 4
    Florence, KY 41042
    +1.8597461456

    Have a nice day.

    Cordially,

    Bobby Easland

  69. Vger

    @Gary – answers you asked specifically for:

    1. Because it is and always has been our intention to be the successor to the moribund old osCommerce Project.

    2. osC Answers was only ever a forum at most, and started originally as a blog. It’s now a project with a team behind it. The oscanswers.com domain was not suitable for use by a project.

    3. I discussed this with Bobby. Whilst understanding the provocation he was under this won’t happen again.

    4. I did not lie. We do everything electronically with Companies House, but we had to wait for a receipt via Snail Mail of a code which allowed us to update things using their Electronic Web Filing Service. There was a long Bank Holiday between our request and receiving it which delayed things. Now that we have that code both Edith and Rob have been removed from the list of Directors, though this may not show up online for a day or two more. Ditto our two new Directors, Tony Blacker and Will Langford.

    I believe that answers all of your questions as directly as I can.

    Because of Matti’s ongoing comments about “what gives us the right” etc. I’ll expand upon the first point. Matti seems to be quite happy for osCommerce to go down the pan, provided that it does so “legally” (within Matti’s definition of what is and isn’t legal). This would be an absolute disaster for all those using osCommerce now and those who’d want or need to use it in the future.

    I did everything I could to try and bring about change at the old project. Though admittedly that doesn’t count for much when the whole thing is controlled by one person with a mindset that doesn’t brook interference and isn’t interested in true teamwork. The choise was:

    (a). Let osCommerce die (Matti’s preferred choice).
    (b). Do the only thing that could be done to save “osCommerce” and that was to fork the whole project but retain the name.

    You can’t save osCommerce by just creating another fork, such as Suocommerce (Matti’s intended fork of osCommerce). A fork is a fork is a fork.

    We always knew that we would have to battle Harald for control of the name osCommerce, it was inevitable. A “project” is about much more than the wishes or dictats of one person, but unfortunately that’s exactly what the old project is and always has been.

    Vger

  70. Gary Post author

    @vger – thanks.

    Though I am not happy at the lack of action re #3, considering that the user “loup garou” got banned by Bobby for, and I quote;

    Your tone is not only aggressive but offensive as well.

    Which was for calling you, vger, a bullshitter – hardly the crime of the century.

    How the hell you let Bobby get away with direct threats of violence is beyond me. If he worked at a company and said what he said to a client, he would have been instantly dismissed, and probably in trouble with the law.

    It seems that there is 1 rule for Bobby and 1 rule for everyone else. Would that be fair to say?

    On another note, vGer, would you please tell Bobby to post that notice in another location (eg the newoscommerceproject forums, or your own forums) if he has not already done so. This blog is not a messaging system ๐Ÿ˜‰ Ta.

  71. Bobby Easland

    Gary,

    It was not a direct threat of violence. It was a statement of truth. I would find their true identity and proceed with a campaign exposing their complete lack of respect for the soldiers that have died fighting for their country. Of course this would be a more powerful tactic if the individual were US or UK based as we’ve suffered the most number of casualties however I don’t know of any country that would make light of a dead soldier unless they were supportive of the terrorist movement. Surely you don’t support the terrorists around the world do you Burt?

    There are other tactics that could be used such as removing that individuals privacy expectation and force them to stop hiding behind a make believe internet moniker. Alternately, allow their employers to be aware that their employee makes jokes about dead soldiers and is a terrorist sympathizer. It could even be interpreted as contacting the local newspaper in their town to see if they’ll cover the story.

    I believe you took the words out of context and now cannot focus on anything else besides that which is a pity.

    With respect to the litigation notice: since everyone has an unwritten or unsaid concesus that nothing will be deleted here I thought it only fitting to post my intention of taking legal action to force a site take down and possible civil suit. Thank you for the web space ๐Ÿ™‚

    Bobby

  72. Java Roasters

    Bobby quote;
    “With respect to the litigation notice: since everyone has an unwritten or unsaid concesus that nothing will be deleted here I thought it only fitting to post my intention of taking legal action to force a site take down and possible civil suit.”

    And Vger quote on her roadmap thread;
    “I moved this topic here to allow ordinary Members to be able to post their comments”

    And we all know how that one ended, the thread had to be closed because everyone did post their comments on your actions.

    All you have done is move the discussion to a place where you can no longer control the message. Good for osCommerce users … bad for you ๐Ÿ™‚

  73. Gary Post author

    @Bobby – had you not have banned me for a month for replying to your accusation, I probably would never have been against you. Whats done is done.

    So long as what is said on this blog is not racist or hateful or outright untruth, or bad swearing, it stays. Unless of course I am obliged to remove something by force majeure.

    You have to remember also that this blog is not for the promotion of what is being done by the US, UK and a host of other countries in the Middle East – that’s a conversation for a different type of blog. What I will say is that different people can & do have different points of view, all of which are 100% valid.

    Don’t be blinkered both in politics, and in business.

  74. Vger

    @ Peter “the thread had to be closed because everyone did post their comments on your actions”

    There you go overestimating your own self-importance again. There are 1500+ members of the new project forums and around 10 posted hostile comments in that thread. Several of them posted time and again, but that does not constitute “everyone”.

    @ Gary re., “loup garou”. He was suspended by Bobby for a short period. The ban was imposed by myself. Loup Garou’s posts became increasingly hostile over a period of time, such as describing v2.0 as a “crappy piece of bloatware, packed to the gills with shitty contributions that should never have seen the light of day.”

    No one in their right mind could describe giving site owners the ability to select which products go on their homepage or the addition of Ultimate SEO URLs in such a way.

    But I don’t think that Loup Garou likes anyone in particular, at least not for any length of time. His comment about Harald was “The guy is an idiot. Start to finish. Insecure in who he is, and insecure in what he does. That was fairly obvious from when I had dealings with him in the past few years.”

    Vger

  75. Java Roasters

    Quote Vger,
    “There are 1500+ members of the new project forums and around 10 posted hostile comments in that thread.”

    LOL once again @ Vger. Vger, your team has posted 4 times to this thread today. That is twice the number as your 1500 members have posted in your forum for the entire day.

    So I guess it is safe to say that you care more about the subject here than your entire 1500 members care about your project. I seem to recall a very short lived cheerleader thread started by your latest drone, yet this one lives on and on and on.

  76. Vger

    @ Peter “That is twice the number as your 1500 members have posted in your forum for the entire day.”

    Oh, that is especially silly from someone involved with an anti-new project forum which, at last count, has two active members (yourself and Matti). Last posts – 7th April and 15th April.

    And just in case you hadn’t noticed – no one who isn’t myself, yourself, Matti, Bobby or Garry has posted in this thread since the 17th.

    You should be glad I do post here, because otherwise this thread would have died weeks ago.

    Your little campaign’s not going too well is it ๐Ÿ˜€

    Vger

  77. Matti

    @Vger: “Your little campaign’s not going too well is it”

    Time will tell ๐Ÿ˜‰

  78. Fimble

    I am a plain speaking person and do not like to dress things up so if my text here offends too bad!

    Form the first time I saw that oscommcerce project site I felt sick, and very angry.
    In my eyes it is plain stealing someone elseรขโ‚ฌโ„ขs work.
    HDLP has written and given us this shopping cart and most of us have made money from it, I personally like to give back to the community both financially and with help on the forums (many do) the money is a useful side effect ๐Ÿ™‚
    But these people seem to have designed the site for self profiteering and generating revenue for themselves, its fine IF they have written the software but they have not.
    I both admire and am repulsed by Vger and her self opinionated ways.
    I admire her because she has the balls to come here and try to reason, I am repulsed because she has made the rip off.
    I am truly surprised that HDLP has not thrown in the towel with all the crap these people have given him he must be very tenacious!

    I believe in the osc project (the REAL one) and will do what I am able to in order to see it progress, even if it is to see the demise of the other project.
    IMHO I see one site giving, and one on the take to see how much they can make out of HDLP osCommerce.
    I cannot wait to see it go tits up, to see if they come crawling back, I for one think the forum is a better place with out Vgers opinions on how the project should go.

    I wish Oscommerce all the best and the osCommerce project (spit) would go to hell and burn.
    To even call it the OSCommerce project! They are not worthy, not even close to it.
    Nic

  79. Gary Post author

    As I said previously, anyone who is just a little more than being “an oscommerce user” knows what a dis-service Rhea at al are doing to “oscommerce the community”.

    You know, it’s so easy to get right (fork > rename < build brand), and yet, they've got it as wrong as can be. They also have a bunch of "fans" who surprisingly haven't posted on this thread, even after an open invitation! Says more than enough in my opinion.

  80. Vger

    @ Fimble – no one is making any money out of the new project at this point in time. But it’s not wrong to set it up with a real business structure so that when v4 is released (which won’t have a single line of old project code in it) it has a business structure behind it to take advantage of any commercial opportunities that do arise.

    At least the business structure gives Core Team Members and Team Members a clear financial benefit from any commercial opportunities that do arise. Unlike the old project. When I became a Team Member of that project the first email I received from another Team Member said “Welcome to Haralds’ monkeys”. Which just about summed up the rights of Team Members of the old project.

    @ Fimble and any other member of the “I hate Vger” club – you won’t see me back on the old project forums. That’s a cast iron promise. As far as I am concerned the old project is finished, so if the new project did not succeed I would give up osCommerce entirely. I’d either move on to something else or retire. I’m 60 this year and don’t intend working forever.

    So you can all relax – you won’t be seeing me ever again on the old forums ๐Ÿ™‚

    Vger

  81. Gary Post author

    @vGer

    Nothing wrong with monkeys, I’ve used one as my avatar for the last 10 years ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Are you going to invite the fans of your project to come here and argue with the detractors – that would be fun.

  82. Gary Post author

    @fimble; I’m not bothered that they are using the codebase – that’s a freedom that the GPL gives. The problem here is vGers rip off of the osCommerce brand, look, theme, awareness.

  83. Vger

    Well, you can all stop jumping up and down now (well, most of you). We decided back on January 15th that the new cart would not be named osCommerce, but we decided not to announce that fact until the first Alpha release.

    At our Team Meeting today we decided to change that decision and to make the announcment now that the new cart, which won’t have a line of osCommerce code in it, will be branded something else – though we haven’t yet decided what.

    The announcement is here:
    http://forums.oscommerceproject.org/index.php?showtopic=1274&pid=8374&st=0&#entry8374

    ๐Ÿ˜€

    Vger

  84. Vger

    By the way, the meeting on January 15th was our first ever full Team Meeting, so we made this decision right at the start.

    Vger

  85. osCommerce

    LMAO @ Vger … That doesn’t make you a good person all of a sudden. You are still a horrid individual.

  86. Gary Post author

    A person less trusting than myself might cough|bullshit|cough

    So, Bobby has resigned from the Core Team, does he remain a Director of eCommerce Ventures LTD

  87. Matti

    Comment by Vger รขโ‚ฌโ€ March 4, 2009 @ 2:17 pm:

    “Our aim all along was to save osCommerce, and we could only do that by setting up our own osCommerce Project.”

    Comment by Vger รขโ‚ฌโ€ April 10, 2009 @ 5:45 pm:

    “We’re not renaming, rebranding, forking, or anything of that sort.”

    Comment by Vger รขโ‚ฌโ€ April 20, 2009 @ 5:02 pm:

    “Do the only thing that could be done to save “osCommerce” and that was to fork the whole project but retain the name.”

    Comment by Vger รขโ‚ฌโ€ April 20, 2009 @ 5:02 pm:

    “We always knew that we would have to battle Harald for control of the name osCommerce, it was inevitable.”

    Comment by Vger รขโ‚ฌโ€ April 28, 2009 @ 12:12 am:

    “But it’s not wrong to set it up with a real business structure so that when v4 [osCommerce] is released…”

    I don’t believe that anybody has any difficulty understanding what the above statements mean.

    Comment by Vger รขโ‚ฌโ€ April 30, 2009 @ 5:59 pm:

    “We decided back on January 15th that the new cart would not be named osCommerce”

    Looks like bullshit, smells like bullshit…. it IS bullshit!

    Lets not forget that the “osCommerce” trademark application is dated: 01/04/2009, so how can anybody believe that this decision was made in January? I would guess that the real reason is another “wad of papers” on her desk… and not from the trademarks office ๐Ÿ˜‰

    No surprise that Bobby has done another disappearing act. Even their dev server has gone *poof!*

    As always, there is a distinct lack of one important factor: credibility

  88. Vger

    @Matti – I don’t know what “wad of papers” you are referring to. Not received it. Don’t expect to either.

    Bobby owned the Dev Server, so it goes with him. It’s not rocket science to set up another one.

    You have only yourself to blame for the osCommerce Trademark application. It was only ever intended to apply to the UK, and was a means to an end – the end being to shut certain people up. That obviously didn’t work.

    We had no intention, until recently, of announcing the branding of the new cart before the Alpha Release, and I’m obviously not going to give you or any of your friends access to the Minutes of that January 15th Team Meeting. I will say this – no one voted against the idea, it was unanimous and it was a full team meeting.

    As for many of my quoted comments – it’s quite simple – you got me angry.

    You and your friends did achieve one thing. We did change our minds about releasing the news ahead of when we intended (and initially wanted) to.

    With regard to the new osCommerce Project, that remains in place as does osCommerce v2.0(Final). It’s the future cart we are referring to that will not be released under the name osCommerce.

    And that’s why I said in my post here earlier today “you can all stop jumping up and down now (well, most of you)” – because I know that won’t apply to you.

    @Gary – no it is part of the structure of the company that a Core Team Member is a Director/Shareholder and vice versa. If someone leaves the Core Team then they have to give up their Directorship and Share allocation.

    Well folks, that’s it as far as I am concerned. If you want to keep this thread going then I’m afraid you’ll have to do it on your own.

    But it’s been nice talking.

    Vger

  89. Anonymous

    @vger

    LOL, its amazing how vger can try and spin things. of course there is now no need for this thread. Its achieved what it was supposed to achieve.

    Quoting vger “Your little campaign’s not going too well is it :D”

    Well yes it is.

    AS for Bobby, I remember his posts about ProjectX (on his old oscommerce freelancers website) , and the fact that he said that project-x was not continuing as he was dieing from some un-named illness.

    I’m not a great fan of HPDL, as I think that project has been severely mis-managed, however I have always agreed with Gary and java roasters that vger and her project were mis using the osCommerce name, both illegaly in trademark terms and morally in GPL terms.

    Writing a cart from scratch. I doubt it ๐Ÿ™‚

  90. Anonymous

    Also. A couple of things strike me as strange.

    vger denied that harald had a claim on osCommerce trademark, as there was no ‘trade’ involved, yet applied for a trademark herself.

    Second, vger runs a hosting company, but let booby, oops Bobby, set up a separate server for Dev. Why. Why not use terranetworks servers. why.

    Because these people are idiots.

  91. Gary Post author

    @vger

    It is my -opinion- that you now have no-one on that team capable of writing a cart from scratch. What is the way forward for vger-cart?

  92. Java Roasters

    Quote Gary
    It is my -opinion- that you now have no-one on that team capable of writing a cart from scratch. What is the way forward for vger-cart?

    Well if Vger rights it at least their cart will be centered … but that is about it. They don’t have a coder for the project anymore. A few hacks but the only people working on the development were Rob and Bobby and they are both gone. My guess is this is just a “way out” for Vger as she now realizes that her cart will never make it off the ground and V2 Final is a step backward for osC.

    Since they announced their plans Nov 1 they have;
    1) Produced 3 (THREE) final versions and still don’t even have something as simple as an upgrade path yet. I guess they were waiting for Alpha 6 Final before adding the upgrade path…. lmao.
    2) Lost both their key coders (Robert and Bobby) and the only two who were doing any work on the project.
    3) Lost 2 (TWO) dedicated servers, one that hosted their forum and the other for their development server. They are now on a shared hosting account at Terranetwork.
    4) They have been caught in every sleazy act they have tried such as applying for the TM and spinning their move to a new faster server.
    5) They have and realized they never will be able to stop the bad press for themselves and for the damage to their individual reputations.

    All in all a utter and total failure from the very start to now, no wonder Vger has tried to create another spin on this but IMO it is because they are shutting it down. But I wouldn’t trust Vger for a second, not one action says anyone can trust her.

  93. Matti

    @Vger

    Your whole premise from the beginning has been to “save” osCommerce. What do we hear from you now? That osCommerce (according to you) has now died with your miserable “v2.0 Final” release. We have seen your abandonment of v3 and now your much touted (but non-existent) v4. Now you claim to be beginning another cart altogether without a development team of any substance. You again prove to everybody that you have no regard whatsoever for osCommerce or the osCommerce community. Yes, you will keep your miserable forums alive to milk whatever you can from them and continue your misuse of the osCommerce name to suit your own ends. Yes, you will continue your criminal behavior of trademark and copyright infringement, we expect no less from you.

    I don’t actually believe that even with Bobby Easland you had a development team of substance, since he has proved (yet again) that he is not capable of sticking with a project. Project-X does not exist and never has other than as a pipe dream. I also recall Bobby’s “mystery illness” (yes, he was supposedly dying) as his excuse for that (he now claims to have been called up for military service, something I don’t believe he has ever done). Project-X went from a couple of weeks to release (supposedly) to never materializing at all. I can’t wait to see his excuse this time!

    I find it remarkable that I am somehow to blame for anything that you do. By telling the World that you applied for trademark registration of “osCommerce” simply because of things that I have said only reinforces what a miserable person you are. You prove yet again that your trademark application was made in bad faith and will fail on those grounds alone. Take responsibility for yourself, these are things that you have done yourself and are not something which I have any control over whatsoever. I will not take responsibility for your anger, for your lying or anything else that YOU do.

  94. Vger

    On August 14th at 5 pm UK time the name ‘osCommerce’ became the registered trademark of eCommerce Ventures Ltd (owners and operators of the new osCommerce Project). It is not due for renewal until 2019.

    This registration is valid within the United Kingdom, but it is also the only instance world-wide of a legally registered ‘osCommerce’ trademark. We are now entitled to be notified of any attempt by anyone else to register the name ‘osCommerce’ as a trademark elsewhere in the world.

    This will allow us to proceed now to officially licence the use of our trademark, and ends the confusion over who is and is not entitled to legaly use the name osCommerce.

    We shall be in touch officially with the owner of this forum about continued use of the name “Club osCommerce”.

    Miss Rhea Anthony (a.k.a. Vger)
    Managing Director
    eCommerce Ventures Ltd

  95. TotallyFooked

    Regarding (Chemo) Bobby’s illness I remember something mentioned about this years ago too however I would just like to avoid the controversy involved in this thread by adding nothing more to it about Chemo except this:

    Chemo wrote: “”It was not a direct threat of violence. It was a statement of truth. I would find their true identity and proceed with a campaign exposing their complete lack of respect for the soldiers that have died fighting for their country. Of course this would be a more powerful tactic if the individual were US or UK based as we’ve suffered the most number of casualties however I don’t know of any country that would make light of a dead soldier unless they were supportive of the terrorist movement. Surely you don’t support the terrorists around the world do you Burt?””

    My response is that citizens of countries where the US has invaded regard the US as the terrorists and they regard the US army as terrorist occupiers. They also see themelves as the resistance. Chemo sounds like Dubya Bush with the ‘are you with us or against us’ rhetoric.

    Chemo wrote: “”Alternately, allow their employers to be aware that their employee makes jokes about dead soldiers and is a terrorist sympathizer. It could even be interpreted as contacting the local newspaper in their town to see if they’ll cover the story””

    Not all ordinary folk are happy at the amount of soldiers killed in any war or illegal attack such as the Iraq invasion however the soldiers SHOULD object to the government sa they themselves are being used as puppets to further US imperialism and its evil crusader dreams.

    If a soldier goes to fight in an illegal war in Afghanistan or Iraq just because he or she does not have the guts to become a Conscientious Objector then really there can only be a limited amount of sympathy if they get killed or maimed because they were NOT fighting for their country and keeping it safe from ‘terrorists’, they were in fact fighting for the imperialistic designs on ruling and controlling other nations and their natural resources that their fanatic racist Christian Evangelical End-Timer pro-zionist anti Muslim anti-Arab government who were running the US of A.

    Put it this way I am not exactly distressed when news of a dead US soldier in Afghanistan or Iraq is announced but at the same time there is a mixture of emotions when a Brit soldiers is killed because it was one of ‘mine’ but at the end of the day they went there to die because Bush told Blair to jump and the poodle said ‘how high’. I just wish they would refuse to fight in illegal imperialist wars!

    About the rest of the thread I have to say I can not see any justification from Vger as to why she has refused to call her project ‘ReadyCart’ and label it as a fork of oscommerce (dot com, not oscommerce registered trademark capital R within a circle).

    How any moderator was allowed to stay on any forum whether newoscommerceproject or oscommerce (dot com, not oscommerce registered trademark capital R within a circle)after threatening someone is beyond me, so it seems a case of favouritism for the sake of keeping Chemo onboard to code the next release of the next project eCommerce Ventures Ltd had in the pipeline.

    The only conclusion is she must have had a good case to hate Harald enough to do this as well as the fact she was probably looking at this from monetary terms too. I can not believe its not butter… I mean I can not believe oscommerce (dot com, not oscommerce registered trademark capital R within a circle) has had its name dragged through the mud like this.

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